fc
Offline
Melbourne, Australia

Hi WBers,

I have two questions, and thought I'd deliver them in one thread.

Field recorders. Have been playing with a Zoom H4n, and quite like it, and for around $300 it's pretty good value. Does anyone have an opinion on this or a recorder of similar function/quality for a similar price? I like the idea that the H4n acts as an interface as well, which is handy for various things I do...

Secondly: Max/MSP, I purchased max 6 recently and while the concept of it is relatively easy coming from Pure Data, I find the objects vastly different in function and whatnot, so does anyone know of any good resources for object lists/definitions? Not so much "how to", but rather, a comparitive object list or just an object list at all?

Thanks dudes and dudettes!

Thursdaybloom
Offline
Adelaide, Australia

1) I use the Zoom H2. I haven't used any other so I can't compare.

2) I came to Max from Pure Data as well and the transition wasn't that difficult, like you said. I haven't used Max is a long time now but there are lists/definitions/help files for all of the objects built into Max itself. For example, in pd you rely on knowing what the objects are and you ctrl/cmd-1 for object and then type the name. The same works in Max (but instead you just press 'n'). In Max however if you double-click on the patch window it will bring up a list of objects. Other than that I've never used an external reference for objects. Just my pd knowledge and what is included within Max itself.

Phil Harmonic
Offline
The future

I have the original H4.. i find it great for quickly hooking up to external gear for recording

Pocaille
Offline
Montreal

Anyone tried the Boss Micro BR Portable 4-Track Digital Recorder?

Last edited by Pocaille (March 19, 2012 1:42 am)

fc
Offline
Melbourne, Australia

Thursdaybloon: thanks for that. The inbuilt help is fine and all, the thing I'm struggling with though, is for example, in pd [osc~] is a simple sine wave oscillator, and the equivalent seems to be [cycle~] in Max, but the usage is quite different. It's these little differences that are annoying. The other objects that I miss are things like [fiddle~] and [sigmund~], and while I understand that externals are just as prevalent in Max as PD, PD-extended has everything functional built in. So, for example, I could write a simple patch to pitch-track and resynthesize an incoming sound source at ~equivalent pitch in maybe 20 minutes, I can't even do it in Max yet 'cause the objects are so vastly different.

Thursdaybloom
Offline
Adelaide, Australia

Any new software, despite how relate it is to something already known, will have a learning curve. It took me a bit to get over a lack of [osc~] but it doesn't take long to adapt. In fact, my guess is you're already an oscillator pro by the time you get this reply.

I still approach pd and Max as different tools used for different things. Another example is the lack of arrays in Max. I'll assume everything is achievable in Max through workarounds, but natively there's no tables/[tabwrite] abilities. This is actually the first thing I noticed.

When looking for pitch tracking information in pd I came across a Max/MSP external that looked perfect. I remember cursing the fact it wasn't available for pd, but now can't remember the name of it for the life of me.  If i find again I'll let you know.

Obscure Robot
Offline
Cascadia Autonomous Region

The first digital audio recorder I used was a zoom H4. It suffered from electrical noise as well as self-noise when handling. The H4n appears to be a lot better, but I'm not sure you will get quality recordings from the XLR jacks. I ended up buying a Sony M10. The Sony is a great little audio recorder. The only downside is that if you don't use it fro a few months, the clock can forget what day it is. Sound quality is great, and it will run nearly forever on a pair of Eneloops. Unlike what you'd expect of Sony, it actually works with standard MicroSDHC cards, so you can fill it up with 16 GB of recording capacity (20 GB total, including the 4GB built-in) inexpensive. That's enough to do 20 hours of 24bit/44.1KHz recording.

I haven't tried Max/MSP. I've mostly done Reaktor and PureData, then went crazy and built a Eurorack system.

Gnarlysunshine
Offline
New Orleans, LA

I've used a variety of field recorders, and the H4n is by far my favorite for musical work.

Thursdaybloom
Offline
Adelaide, Australia

Have you used the H2 to compare them both for us? I've only used the H2 and think it's great. If the H4n is noticeably better then when I get the funds to buy my own I'll get one.

Gnarlysunshine
Offline
New Orleans, LA

I have used the H2, the H4 and the H4n.  The H2 is very good for recording rooms through its microphones (Which are the same as the H4 on board mics), but it does not have the XLR/Patch cable inputs that the H4 and the H4n have, which allows them to be used as interfaces.  The H4n has much better on board mics than both the H4 and the H2 and it can record using the inputs and the on board mics at the same time.  The H4n also has an edge over the H4 because it can handle SD cards over 16GB, has a built in 1/4-20 mount (The H4 had some stupid strap-on thing), the mics can focused to either be X-Y stereo or directional, and the H4n has an on board speaker so you can preview your recordings without having to lug around a pair of headphones.  The H4n is also made of much sturdier material than the H4 or the H2.

Thursdaybloom
Offline
Adelaide, Australia
Gnarlysunshine wrote:

I have used the H2, the H4 and the H4n.  The H2 is very good for recording rooms through its microphones (Which are the same as the H4 on board mics), but it does not have the XLR/Patch cable inputs that the H4 and the H4n have, which allows them to be used as interfaces.  The H4n has much better on board mics than both the H4 and the H2 and it can record using the inputs and the on board mics at the same time.  The H4n also has an edge over the H4 because it can handle SD cards over 16GB, has a built in 1/4-20 mount (The H4 had some stupid strap-on thing), the mics can focused to either be X-Y stereo or directional, and the H4n has an on board speaker so you can preview your recordings without having to lug around a pair of headphones.  The H4n is also made of much sturdier material than the H4 or the H2.

Fantastic. Thank you!

fc
Offline
Melbourne, Australia

Awesome replies. Thanks everyone. The Sony M10 looks pretty nice, particularly its size. Interesting microphone array though. Hm, this has thrown a spanner into the works.

I've been pretty happy with the quality of the H4n, including through the XLR jack. And it's so much fun! Will look at the price of the Sony (449 according to the website, but I reckon I can do better!).

Re: being an oscillator king or whatever, hardly. I'm not doing any serious work with programming at the moment, and I think you're right about the "two different tools for different uses"; I didn't even realise max had no array functionality. It has a lot of things very similar, or that are used in ways you can use arrays in pd. But that's interesting. Anyway, because I have no projects with Max/PD, I'm just not really digging into it with any seriousness yet.

Thursdaybloom
Offline
Adelaide, Australia

.pd file sharesies coming up

rdomain
Offline
Coastal Australia

I use the H4n and have been very happy with it.  Handy for recording rehearsals and gigs also especially with the option of having a direct feed and a mic feed at the same time.  The stock windsock is pretty lame though if you're doing field recordings.  Heaps of aftermarket ones to choose from though.

popsicle
Offline
NSW

A wily topic of discussion, if ever I heard one.... IMO, it depends a lot on:

a) Whether you plan to use an external mic (and if so, what sort and what's its compatibility impedance-wise with the PAR etc etc);

b) In what conditions/environment you plan to record;

c) Whether you want to record small or large spreads and from short or long distances; and

d) Mic technique.**

Mostly due to budget constraints I ended up with a Marantz PDM661 for my PhD work (note that this was against my Honours Supervisors' recommendation – he thinks Sony make better PARs and whilst ordinarily I'd be inclined to agree with him, at the time of purchase I was both sick of deliberating over which machine to buy, and couldn't afford a (high-end) Sony. Such is life).

If you can get hold of one, I would suggest a Korg MR-1. They were discontinued a while back but there might be stores in the states who still carry old stock (my Masters Supervisor found one on eBay). Alternatively, a Zoom H4 will suffice for *most* situations, but be prepared to pay out for a noise-removal plug-in at some point.



**"The Books" say, at the end of the day it's about mic techniques...which could or could not be a comforting thought, I guess.

Last edited by popsicle (March 21, 2012 9:18 am)

fc
Offline
Melbourne, Australia

Thanks Poppi, that's extremely helpful. I'll see what I can dig up with regard to those other branded devices.

I am unsure whether I would want to use an external microphone, at this stage I can't foresee the need, but that's foresight for you, you never can tell what's going to happen! As a standalone unit the H4n is probably good enough, but the external inputs I've found now to be fairly ordinary, though not unusable. For pure sound reproduction though, either a decent audio interface + laptop, or some other device would be preferable for external mic use I think.

b and c: I want a unit that is as versatile as possible, so, for example, to capture a very large, open space in as much detail as possible or to record an ensemble in a small space. Or anything in between. Big ask, I'm sure, but any unit that does one thing very well and the other tolerably would be more than adequate!

So far Sony are having a good run of recommendations, this is good. Marantz? Goodness, that can't have been cheap!

Are you aware of any books on field-recording mic technique? There's hundreds for instrument microphone technique books, but I've not seen one for field recording. Any recommendations?

Thanks again!